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Luna Angelo
We Who Walk Alone
826
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Posted - 2014.03.20 20:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Because the Amarr ARE fighters. They are SUPPOSED to stand toe-to-toe with things better than the other races.
BTW, Caldari will be the best Hunter-Killer.
I don't need luck, I have ammo.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
CEO of We Who Walk Alone
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Luna Angelo
We Who Walk Alone
826
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Posted - 2014.03.20 20:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Luna Angelo wrote:Because the Amarr ARE fighters. They are SUPPOSED to stand toe-to-toe with things better than the other races.
BTW, Caldari will be the best Hunter-Killer. That is not at all our racial design. Our racial design is endurance, this bonus reflects that, but in terms of in game balance the numbers do not stack up. But with only 30 more HP, less than one round, low speed, etc how do we stand up to them better? Amarr have almost all the same ship variants any other race does in EVE and are not necessarily designed more of less for combat. No, that IS your racial design. Best toe-to-toe Logi, best toe-to-toe Heavy, arguably the best toe-to-toe Assault, and best toe-to-toe Scout. The bonus makes no sense, but there it is.
I don't need luck, I have ammo.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
CEO of We Who Walk Alone
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Luna Angelo
We Who Walk Alone
828
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Posted - 2014.03.20 22:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Luna Angelo wrote:True Adamance wrote:Luna Angelo wrote:Because the Amarr ARE fighters. They are SUPPOSED to stand toe-to-toe with things better than the other races.
BTW, Caldari will be the best Hunter-Killer. That is not at all our racial design. Our racial design is endurance, this bonus reflects that, but in terms of in game balance the numbers do not stack up. But with only 30 more HP, less than one round, low speed, etc how do we stand up to them better? Amarr have almost all the same ship variants any other race does in EVE and are not necessarily designed more of less for combat. No, that IS your racial design. Best toe-to-toe Logi, best toe-to-toe Heavy, arguably the best toe-to-toe Assault, and best toe-to-toe Scout. The bonus makes no sense, but there it is. So you are saying you believe all Amarr content needs to be relegated to combat and not given specialist roles like the other 3 racial groups. Never said that. You still HAVE the specialist role. You're still a scout, you're just better suited than the other scouts to combat. What's to stop you from doing other things with it. Caldari will be the best Hunter-Killer, like it will be with it's other suits (exception of Logi, which will be best for restocking ammo), Gallentes are best at CQC, no matter the class, and Minmatar are the fastest, no matter the class. Amarr will just be the strongest combatants. Nothing more or less than that was my point. And, like I said, the bonus doesn't fit with the philosophy.
Remember, Amarr fight for their God, they fight on the front for that reason. Caldari are utilitarian, so they are longer range, as it's more efficient (not effective, but efficient), Gallente prefer being personal, so they will be, and are, the kings of CQC, and Minmatar use hit-and-run, skirmishing tactics, and thus are the fastest suits for that. One-on-one, Min wins, more than that, Amarr will win. Long-range, Caldari wins, up close, Gallente reigns supreme.
TL;DR: Amarr are fighters, Caldari are snipers (not the class, the playstyle), Gallentes are CQC, and Minmatar are skirmishers.
I don't need luck, I have ammo.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
CEO of We Who Walk Alone
|
Luna Angelo
We Who Walk Alone
829
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Posted - 2014.03.20 22:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Faquira Bleuetta wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:To be honest the Amarr scout WILL be a scout, it still has scanrange and more stealth than any assault suit. It is also faster than most suits (only other racial scouts are faster and the most fragile assault suit is marginally faster all other suits are slower).
On top of that the Amarr has by far the best stamina and stamina recovery (even without the skill). And the bonus is incredible usefull if you know what you are doing, my gal scout is always low on stamina as I use stamina 95% the time I am in battle.
So the amarr scout is still a scout it is just more focussed in combat.
The gal comes close but will lack overall mobility in exchange for more long term survivability.
The gals scout bonus is also more situational. The dampening skill is only needed if someone is using a protoscanner or against the gal logi. All basic and std scanners will be beaten by any scout as well as all passive scans (apart from the cal scout with skill bonus).
The gals scan range buff is only halfway usefull as he is lacking precision.
The cal scout will be the walking scanner and perfect skirmisher. His bonuses work well together and strenghten each other. Compared to the gal scout they are more powerful because of that.
The minni scout will be the fast hacker (I still don't know how the knife bonus fits in here this should be switched with the gal scan range bonus or against a sprintspeed bonus).
Out of all scouts the hacking seems to be the most usefull bonus in terms of battle importance (well as long as you play PCG/Skirm or Dom in an ambush this bonus is utterly useless).
So every scout suit bonus is somewhat limited in its usage apart from the amarr bonus as long as you move you can make good use of that bonus....
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HT09oh7Jzwk/TQ5BFHnovHI/AAAAAAAAAWs/h2KquhgDevQ/s1600/stfu2.jpg#Stfu%20meme If you're going to be rude, rather than listen to our reasons and THINK (shocking concept, I know), perhaps you shouldn't complain to begin with. I understand your concerns. I even mentioned that the bonus made no sense given the Amarr philosophy. But instead of refuting me, with logic and reason (another shocking concept, I know), you tell me to stfu? How petty.
I don't need luck, I have ammo.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
CEO of We Who Walk Alone
|
Luna Angelo
We Who Walk Alone
830
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Posted - 2014.03.20 23:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ivan Avogadro wrote:Luna Angelo wrote:[ Never said that. You still HAVE the specialist role. You're still a scout, you're just better suited than the other scouts to combat. What's to stop you from doing other things with it. Caldari will be the best Hunter-Killer, like it will be with it's other suits (exception of Logi, which will be best for restocking ammo), Gallentes are best at CQC, no matter the class, and Minmatar are the fastest, no matter the class. Amarr will just be the strongest combatants. Nothing more or less than that was my point. And, like I said, the bonus doesn't fit with the philosophy.
Remember, Amarr fight for their God, they fight on the front for that reason. Caldari are utilitarian, so they are longer range, as it's more efficient (not effective, but efficient), Gallente prefer being personal, so they will be, and are, the kings of CQC, and Minmatar use hit-and-run, skirmishing tactics, and thus are the fastest suits for that. One-on-one, Min wins, more than that, Amarr will win. Long-range, Caldari wins, up close, Gallente reigns supreme.
TL;DR: Amarr are fighters, Caldari are snipers (not the class, the playstyle), Gallentes are CQC, and Minmatar are skirmishers. You're presenting an argument without any substance. Lore can be whatever the devs say, it has no baring on game mechanics. So I want you to address your thesis. Luna Angelo wrote: you're just better suited than the other scouts to combat Please back that statement up with facts and reasons, not equivocation and lore. Why are the Amarr scouts better fighters than Gallente Scouts? First just looking at the suits themselves the Amarr are (a) lacking in native armor regen and (b) 4% slower. They recieve a 30 EHP buff total. Does 30 extra hit points make them better at combat? Arguable. And certainly not so self apparent that you can just make a blanket statement and expect everyone to agree with you. Next, look at the racial bonuses. Gallente get extra scan range, and extra dampening. Amarr get extra stamina and extra stamina regen. Everyone knows that the Gal bonus is complex level and the Am bonus is militia level. It's the source of most of the Amarr scout hate. But anyway, how exactly does extra stamina help them in a fight? Unless you are using melee, it doesn't. And its not like bunny hopping in a slower suit is any better than strafing in a faster suit If we are being honest with each other, dampening doesnt help with a fight either. It helps immediately before or immediately after, but if you are actively being shot at, a dampening bonus is worthless. So it's not like Gal is "better" here, but they certainly aren't worse at combat than the Amarr. What the Gal scout will be better at is picking its fights. To the casual observer, it will seem like Gal scouts win more often because they get to control engagements better. Cal scouts and Scanner Logis will be picking your Amarr scout up all the time. Gal scouts at least avoid that nonsense. In the end, you have a scout without a niche. Saying it's "combat" oriented because of a few HP isn't correct. Even Min scout is more combat because he gets a legitimate bonus to a weapon. Amarr have a little bit more defense, at the expense of health regen and speed. Reload bonus, damage bonus, clip size bonus, weapon fitting bonus...these are all things that would enhance a "combat specialist" persona. They are not on the Amarr scout. Lore DOES matter, though. I say these things because the lore is what drew me. That being said, I agree with your points. With a better bonus, one that's combat oriented, it would fall in line. As it is, it is a joke. I said THAT, too. When I said that Amarr are the better fighters, I meant the other suits are better suited. If the Amarr Scout had a better bonus, it would fit into that.
Here is my reasoning: Amarr Assault has a laser weapon heat sink. Amarr logi has a sidearm. Amarr Sentinel has the best tank. Amarr Commando is, well, IDK, really, but only because I don't want to look up the bonus at the moment.
With those facts, it stands to reason that Amarr Scout would follow the same path. So it's not JUST the lore, but the other suits.
I don't need luck, I have ammo.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
CEO of We Who Walk Alone
|
Luna Angelo
We Who Walk Alone
830
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Posted - 2014.03.20 23:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Luna Angelo wrote:Ivan Avogadro wrote:Luna Angelo wrote:[ Never said that. You still HAVE the specialist role. You're still a scout, you're just better suited than the other scouts to combat. What's to stop you from doing other things with it. Caldari will be the best Hunter-Killer, like it will be with it's other suits (exception of Logi, which will be best for restocking ammo), Gallentes are best at CQC, no matter the class, and Minmatar are the fastest, no matter the class. Amarr will just be the strongest combatants. Nothing more or less than that was my point. And, like I said, the bonus doesn't fit with the philosophy.
Remember, Amarr fight for their God, they fight on the front for that reason. Caldari are utilitarian, so they are longer range, as it's more efficient (not effective, but efficient), Gallente prefer being personal, so they will be, and are, the kings of CQC, and Minmatar use hit-and-run, skirmishing tactics, and thus are the fastest suits for that. One-on-one, Min wins, more than that, Amarr will win. Long-range, Caldari wins, up close, Gallente reigns supreme.
TL;DR: Amarr are fighters, Caldari are snipers (not the class, the playstyle), Gallentes are CQC, and Minmatar are skirmishers. You're presenting an argument without any substance. Lore can be whatever the devs say, it has no baring on game mechanics. So I want you to address your thesis. Luna Angelo wrote: you're just better suited than the other scouts to combat Please back that statement up with facts and reasons, not equivocation and lore. Why are the Amarr scouts better fighters than Gallente Scouts? First just looking at the suits themselves the Amarr are (a) lacking in native armor regen and (b) 4% slower. They recieve a 30 EHP buff total. Does 30 extra hit points make them better at combat? Arguable. And certainly not so self apparent that you can just make a blanket statement and expect everyone to agree with you. Next, look at the racial bonuses. Gallente get extra scan range, and extra dampening. Amarr get extra stamina and extra stamina regen. Everyone knows that the Gal bonus is complex level and the Am bonus is militia level. It's the source of most of the Amarr scout hate. But anyway, how exactly does extra stamina help them in a fight? Unless you are using melee, it doesn't. And its not like bunny hopping in a slower suit is any better than strafing in a faster suit If we are being honest with each other, dampening doesnt help with a fight either. It helps immediately before or immediately after, but if you are actively being shot at, a dampening bonus is worthless. So it's not like Gal is "better" here, but they certainly aren't worse at combat than the Amarr. What the Gal scout will be better at is picking its fights. To the casual observer, it will seem like Gal scouts win more often because they get to control engagements better. Cal scouts and Scanner Logis will be picking your Amarr scout up all the time. Gal scouts at least avoid that nonsense. In the end, you have a scout without a niche. Saying it's "combat" oriented because of a few HP isn't correct. Even Min scout is more combat because he gets a legitimate bonus to a weapon. Amarr have a little bit more defense, at the expense of health regen and speed. Reload bonus, damage bonus, clip size bonus, weapon fitting bonus...these are all things that would enhance a "combat specialist" persona. They are not on the Amarr scout. Lore DOES matter, though. I say these things because the lore is what drew me. That being said, I agree with your points. With a better bonus, one that's combat oriented, it would fall in line. As it is, it is a joke. I said THAT, too. When I said that Amarr are the better fighters, I meant the other suits are better suited. If the Amarr Scout had a better bonus, it would fit into that. Here is my reasoning: Amarr Assault has a laser weapon heat sink. Amarr logi has a sidearm. Amarr Sentinel has the best tank. Amarr Commando is, well, IDK, really, but only because I don't want to look up the bonus at the moment. With those facts, it stands to reason that Amarr Scout would follow the same path. So it's not JUST the lore, but the other suits. Can I get your lore sources that state our combat doctrine oriented as you say? I would also like sources from EVE ships that point out how our specialist ships cannot functions effectively in their roles and are more inclined towards direct combat. Adamance, my friend, you and I know that the EVE ships have 2-3 bonuses, while we just have 2.... And as for Lore, Templar One. The original was MADE to fight on the frontlines.
I don't need luck, I have ammo.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
CEO of We Who Walk Alone
|
Luna Angelo
We Who Walk Alone
830
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Posted - 2014.03.21 00:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:My point is I dont think you can justify why the Amarr scout fulfils an assault role as opposed to a scout role?
You neither have lore evidence or knowledge like I can expect from other players, you are basing your assessment off of what? Some arbitrary knowledge you think you possess and are entitled to after playing this game for X months?
Have you even looked into Amarr combat doctrines and historical precedents of such combat doctrines?
Why even build a scout that isnt designed to scout? Adamance, I will find a few later and post them. Is that ok, my friend?
I don't need luck, I have ammo.
Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.
CEO of We Who Walk Alone
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